Part 2

 ATE: Both your backgrounds and styles in music are quite divergent, how do you end up complimenting each other so well, especially when most of Emily's work was driven by the traditional side of the jazz sound?

Kathy: Well it's good to sound different. I was playing with a student the other day and he was a completely different player – I think it's great that you can come to it from a different perspective. You don't want your voice to be the same. You don't want to sound the same. You want enough of it to communicate properly but you don't want it to be the same at all. I think it makes a better contrast, just more interesting full stop.

ATE: As I consider my favorite jazz guitar duo albums Remler/Coryell (Together), Runyon/Filipak (Arrival), Basile/Abercrombie(Animations), I'm also reminded that having two guitars as the shared lead instruments can be challenging and not always the dream sound you would imagine when you match two guitarists together. What's the magic ingredient in a successful dual guitar framework?

Kathy: Well you've got to listen really, and give the other person space. You can't be playing over everything or putting everything you know in the next solo. You've got to give it space and listen and make it a nice musical experience.

Deirdre: You've got to enjoy being one of two guitarists I think. I did say in a recent interview that I never particularly wanted to play with another guitarist. I just thought meeting Kathy again, I knew that Kathy and I got on quite well as personalities and probably would musically – and I also enjoy hearing her. That's the other thing, because we are different, when we're playing the same tune Kathy always comes up with something, and I think: “Oh, I'd never have thought of that!” I really enjoy it though, I don't think: “Oh, she's doing something different”, I enjoy it, and that's what's fascinating about a good guitar duo – you can see two different personalities emerging over the same framework. So I think it's quite fun for the audience as well.

ATE: Kathy, you need to know we want more from you than is currently available, what can we expect from you in the future?

Kathy: Live! Live! Live! Live is the way it's going and that's the thing. All the youngsters are the same – they can get free recorded music all over the globe at the touch of a button. It no longer has any cache or value.

ATE: What about the prospect of a live album on the shelves following this round of performances from the 'Emily Remembered' tour?

Kathy: Yes, it's definitely a possibility.

Deirdre: Literally around the corner from me we've got Toe Rag Studios who've got all the old gear and even records completely live. The White Stripes came all the way over here to record in that studio. They've had all sorts of pop people coming in there, and I said to Kathy that after this series of gigs we could just go in there one afternoon and put down a whole album as a sort of record of what we're doing on stage – and I think that would work really well.

Kathy: I'm up for that of course.

ATE:  Wonderful, please keep us posted. So let's switch focus here to you now Deirdre, your journey to a career in music is quite interesting. You are from a musical family of sorts, with encouragement and access to instruments at an early age. It was definitely part of your heritage but it was perhaps the stark deprivation of music on every level (not even a choir!) in your all-girls convent grammar school that initially sparked your desire to be more connected to music. I find that ironically charming, that the absence of music is what drove you to it with even more passion. You should go back and thank those nuns now and maybe drop off a CD.

Has being involved in music always felt like a battle for you, in that you had to fight for acceptanceand equal respect to be part of it?

Deirdre: No, actually. “Battle”, sounds like you're in a certain emotional state...I remember when I started playing as a teenager...I met this boy who was two years older than me, Danny, when I was 16 – he was really into jazz guitar and I wasn't at the time, and we shared The Beatles in common, which was good, but he really helped me. But there were loads of people who were quite dismissive and didn't take me seriously of course, but I didn't sort of “flop” and go, ugh(a surrendering sigh)...

Kathy: That happens to quite a few men as well I have to say.

Deirdre: I just thought: “No! I'm going to keep on...I'll just stay at home and start practicing and stay away from school and practice.” And I was just really determined. I did love playing but I also was absolutely determined that I was going to, if you like, overcome my very obvious limitations at the time. And I was aware of my limitations. I spent the first 15 years playing, feeling totally frustrated and I didn't enjoy the jazz gigs. The rock gigs I sort of enjoyed because you can do a lot with a little in rock – as long as you've got something to say and I always had a lot to say! (much laughter)
I remember doing bluesy kinds of solos and “rocky” things, and playing at gigs and thinking: “Oh wow!” I remember someone applauding a guitar solo which is unusual at a rock gig and I was so shocked. I lived on that for about a week! I'd think of this guy giving me a little round of applause at the end of this rocky thing and I thought: “Oh wow! It means he thinks I'm good!” and people gave me good feedback after rock gigs. But jazz, oh my god, I spent years just hating what I played because I didn't feel able to do what I wanted to do. What I could hear, I just couldn't do it.

ATE: As you reflect on your experiences now, how would you describe your journey to jazz – did you have a 'Goodbye Pork Pie Hat' moment like Kathy, where you knew jazz was it or has it slowly progressed there for you over time?

Deirdre: Well I have to say strangely enough I had an absolute 'Goodbye Pork Pie Hat' moment because...and this is on record as well, so I'm not just making this up – I was into a guitarist called Jeff Beck in the 70's who started me off in blues/rock and he played with The Yardbirds and had his own band with Rod Stewart, so quite well known on the British scene and American I think. But he got into playing more jazz in the early 70's and I had a guitar teacher who said: “Have you heard of Jeff Beck?”, and I heard this album and thought: "This is fantastic!". He did a cover of a Stevie Wonder tune which I loved, 'Cause We've Ended As Lovers', and I learned that and then on his next album which was called 'Wired',  he did 'Goodbye Pork Pie Hat' and I thought it was fantastic. I was aware of jazz and I liked a certain amount of jazz but mostly it sounded to me at the time, I was about nineteen or so, too “acousticy” to me. I had reaction about being considered a girl folk guitarist. So many times people assumed I played folk or I was a singer/songwriter/folk guitarist and I wanted to play at the time, it was called “lead guitar”. If you said lead guitar they knew you were serious and you were going to play above the third fret! (more laughter again)...That's the other thing, girls were not allowed to play above the third fret – they play rhythm or sing. So hearing Jeff Beck play 'Goodbye Pork Pie Hat' and realizing that jazz could be interpreted in different ways...more sustained, more of a rocky sound, for me that was a really big moment. It set me on a slightly different path at that time. So yes, I did have a 'Goodbye Pork Pie Hat' moment and it has progressed slowly as well.

ATE: It's so hard to label your music and file it under one category, you have elements of rock, funk, jazz, blues, classical, orchestral and more to your style, which gives your albums a great deal of freedom.  Even from song to song one will be pleasantly surprised how much musical ground you cover, it's refreshing to the listener. How do you describe your musical evolution?

Deirdre: I think it reflects my personality really, there are certain core things...I've always loved swing. I love jazz swing. From Wes Montgomery to Pat Metheny, that whole kind of area...I've always loved that, and that's never gone. I've always loved slightly funky things. I can get really into ideas for a while...I remember in the 80's I was really into African guitar and I went to see African groups as much as I saw jazz groups. So I loved the West Coast of Africa, these guitarists, and I used to love all that stuff. But I don't listen to that now...things change. I like a groove and I love a good tune. I've always been into melody and I do like ideas, I do have a very “flitty” kind of 'full-of-ideas' mind – and then I'll just crash off and sleep for 10 hours! Crash and burn! (laughter again) But I think as I've got older I've settled down a little bit and if we do an album (Kathy & I) you're not going to hear reggae and African on it!

ATE: This must be challenging for your band mates as well unless they also come from equally diverse backgrounds, or is it that each one has their own speciality which individually adds that dynamic to the groups sound?

Deirdre: I think there's a view outside the musicians – which is people do like to label things and I understand why. If you're reading a review or hearing about somebody you say: “What's the album like?” Most musicians especially these days have grown up with the familiarity of living through several different styles, or more than several, and a lot of people I know start off listening to what's on the radio, what's in their Mum and Dad's record collection...I know people who have been into punky, grungey things – really getting into jazz. I used to like Eddie Van Halen in 1980 but I've no desire to play like Eddie Van Halen at all !! But at the time I remember thinking, can I try and learn the 'Eruption' solo (laughs). I don't know if you had that kind of moment Kathy?

Kathy: (Laughs) No, no! I might get it later...I might get it now! (more laughter)

Deirdre: I think most musicians have a lot of different experiences of that...

Kathy: You hear something and you like it. It doesn't really matter if it's jazz or what it is really. It comes and gets in your music somehow. That's just life.

ATE: Good insight. Moving on again to gear Deirdre, I understand you have a 1960's vintage of a classic Epiphone model. Is that your main guitar and what do you love so much about it?

Deirdre: It's a 1961 Epiphone Casino. I bought it in 1976. So I bought it a long time ago because I was always looking for a warmer, bigger, sound. I've got a '61 Strat which I still play. I don't play it in the duo but even when I had the Strat I was always trying to find a way of getting a warmer sound with more body in it.
Actually now, I think a lot of that (warmer sound) comes from your personal technique and the development of very subtle techniques and abilities.

Kathy: You find that when somebody else plays your guitar for example, it just doesn't sound the same as you, and it's the same instrument.

Deirdre: What I Like about the Epiphone is because it's actually not a semi-solid it's actually hollow inside, they were made as cheaper guitars... funnily enough the Epiphone Casino is identical to the Gibson 330 which Emily Remler I think played, which was considered originally a student guitar. But because it doesn't have the block of wood inside like the other semi acoustics, the Gibson 335 – at quite low volumes you can get this very slight sustain which you wouldn't expect from a thinner guitar than the traditional archtops. I do have a Heritage archtop which I really like,   but I find I use the Epiphone for most of the jazz gigs...I use it now for all kinds of gigs like jazz fusion.  It's the warmth I've always liked. I stopped playing it for a few years and then I started playing it more and more again, and I'm very pleased about that.

Kathy: I think there's some great guitars out there. They don't have to be vintage ones.

ATE: All jazzers also have very strong opinions on what combinations of electronics and amps create the best sounds, what are your choices?

Deirdre: For ages I actually liked amps that gave a bit more color to the sound. So I used to like things like Mesa-Boogies and all variations, but I couldn't carry them. I would love a Fender Twin if I could carry it. I'm just not prepared to put my back out and it's not because I've reached a certain age – I started to put my back out when I was thirty. It's not just a woman thing either...

Kathy: Recently a couple of us have got these AER acoustic amps for little gigs and they are fantastic – you can lift them. And a couple of the guys have been on to that...Jim Mullen our very famous British jazz guitarist has been on it for years. He doesn't drive so he's on the train a lot. They're little but they're good.

Deirdre: But I'm still not quite there yet with an AER. I've got an old Fender Princeton Reverb which is actually a 12w amp. It's a studio amp but this one's slightly modified with a 12inch speaker – I bought it like that, secondhand. Like Kathy I can't be doing with a Fender Twin Reverb.

Kathy: We use them at college where they're static. With a Vox AC30 my 175 sounds spectacular through it. But it would be fine if we were rock stars and had a roadie, it would be no problem – but we're not! So lugging it up the stairs at The Vortex (jazz club) is no fun.

Deirdre: I would like either a Vibrolux or a Blues Reverb, a slightly bigger one than mine. If I had the money I probably would have a small AER for those gigs where you've just got to get on the bus or train.

Kathy: You need both really. But you need a team of people with you...

Deirdre: We are going to put that on our Rider: “Roadies to be provided”! (laughter)

ATE: So What's up next for you? Have you got anything cooking in the studio?

Deirdre: We've already mentioned I think that we're going to do an album together and like Kathy, I do like to write, and so I've always got ideas. I've got about ten half-finished ideas at the moment – original things, just little snippets...

ATE: Your involvement with education is also extensive, starting with the BBC series 'Rockschool', to positions within Lewisham College, Goldsmiths, London University and Rose Bruford College. Where are you putting down musical roots these days and what projects are you currently heading?

Deirdre: Well, actually I also did the Prince's Trust to add to that list and Brighton Rock and all sorts of things for a long time, right up to about 6 or 7 years ago, and then I actually stopped most of my teaching. I didn't get fed up, because I actually enjoy teaching and I have some private pupils. But I run a club, when I say I run a club it sounds like I've got a building (I haven't), but with a colleague of mine, Alison Rayner, who's a double bass player – we're actually celebrating twenty years of running Blow The Fuse jazz club. So I put my energies a lot more into putting on gigs, promoting gigs. I've been doing quite a lot of practicing this year actually – which is really,really good. I haven't got a desire to go back into a kind of college framework at the moment but I do enjoy teaching.  And also what put me off...I know it sounds very into myself and I don't mean it like this, but because I changed my tuning (low to high E A D G C F) a long time ago...

Kathy: Oh yes, she's got this really wonky tuning system!

Deirdre: ...I did get asked to teach on a couple of jazz courses. I knew I would be dealing with much more advanced students and I didn't feel I could and I hadn't realized that I would be cutting myself off really (tuning in 4ths) from working with people at a more advanced level. Because tuning in 4ths, it's a whole conceptual thing and it changed the way I look at the guitar and everything.

Kathy:  And you can't follow what she's doing!

Deirdre:  Kathy says I put her off sometimes...she looks over to me and what I'm doing and goes: “What?!! Flat 9! ” So I had to make a choice and it was difficult, but I feel that's what I had to do and I've continued to do it.  And it has cut me off from a certain amount of jazz teaching, particularly. Maybe I'll write a book one day: 'The Secret of How to Play in 4ths' (laughs).

Kathy: That's what people are always after, the secret. How do you do it?...A lot of work!

ATE: I read that you have a music instruction book coming out in the U.S. aimed at teenage girl guitarists, what's the title and has it been released yet?

Deirdre: Well, I wrote it and sent it off two years ago and I think Music Sales who were supposed to be doing the book had a lot of problems...so in the current economic market I haven't heard what's happened to it. It's somewhere in the Music Sales system – they asked me to do it.

ATE: How exactly can a learning guide be focused toward young lady players?

Deirdre: ...I said to them (Music Sales) you should market it by putting some photos of girls playing guitars on it, but market it towards a teenage audience or beginners audience. But they had their own ideas and that was fine.

ATE: You said when you started playing jazz guitar there were no female role models in the U.K., was Emily the first woman jazz guitarist you were aware of?

Deirdre: Yes she was, and I was actually in America when I picked up one of her albums. That's in 1984, I was with the Guest Stars, '85 maybe, and I saw an album of hers in a shop in New York and I just bought it – I think it was 'Take Two' or 'Firefly' maybe...

Kathy: Yeah, I had that Larry Coryell 'Together' one. Someone gave it to me on a cassette.

Deirdre: Leni Stern, I remember her...and I remember Mary Osborne. I was playing with a piano player, this guy, who said: “Have you heard of Mary Osborne?” That's the other thing as well...people will seem to be treating you like anybody else and then they go: “ You remind me of Mary Osborne”, and you think to yourself: “How?!!” So yes Emily was the first woman jazz player I was aware of.

ATE:  Emily did tour in Europe frequently during the '80's, did you ever see her live?

Kathy: Yes I did, she was very good...it was in Hanover in Germany with Richie Cole. She did a tour of Europe. Did you ever see her Deirdre?

Deirdre: No, Never saw her. I was very much aware of her. I don't actually remember her coming to play in London and this is what I'd be interested to find out. If she had come to London I would no doubt have gone to see her. I was in Germany a lot in the '80's as well, I'm sorry I missed the opportunity to see her.

Please continue on to part 3